ICYMI Video: Meta Whistleblower Confirms to Blumenthal Meta Knew of Risks Exposing Americans’ Data to CCP

[WASHINGTON, D.C.] – In case you missed it, U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT), a member of the Senate Judiciary Committee, questioned Meta whistleblower Sarah Wynn-Williams yesterday at a Subcommittee on Crime and Counterterrorism hearing entitled, “A Time for Truth: Oversight of Meta’s Foreign Relations and Representations to the United States Congress.” Throughout the hearing, Blumenthal raised national security concerns over Ms. Wynn-Williams’s allegations that Meta worked to provide censorship and surveillance software for the Chinese Communist Party (CCP) in order to gain access to the Chinese market, potentially exposing Americans’ private data to a foreign adversary. 

During his questioning, Blumenthal asked Ms. Wynn-Williams if engineers working on these tools raised concerns to higher-ups at Meta, “In order to operate in China, the Communist Party requires American companies to register with authorities and host servers inside the country. And I think it’s pretty well known that Chinese law requires that security services are allowed access to any data hosted within the country. Did any of Facebook’s security team or its engineers raise concerns to management about Americans’ private information being exposed to Chinese spying?”

Ms. Wynn-Williams confirmed that engineers raised these concerns, continuing, “They documented their concern in a number of ways. They noted that this would happen, that the Chinese would get access to the data. They also noted their concern in other discussions, in other documentations, saying you know, ‘my redline as a security engineer is to not be comfortable with this, but my redline is not Mark Zuckerberg’s redline.’”

During the hearing, Blumenthal also raised concerns about Meta’s alleged censorship work with the CCP, “So, the chief editor, a creation of Facebook, was an Orwellian censor that apply to locations outside of mainland China to Taiwan and Hong Kong, people not within the legal jurisdiction of China, but also obviously the Chinese themselves and it was designed and implemented by Meta and Mark Zuckerberg…Even though its very existence was denied before this Committee in 2018.”

The full text of Blumenthal’s exchange with Ms. Wynn-Williams is below. A video of Blumenthal’s exchange with Ms. Wynn-Williams can be found here. Blumenthal’s opening statement at the hearing can be found here.

U.S. Senator Richard Blumenthal (D-CT): Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. In order to operate in China, the Communist Party requires American companies to register with authorities and host servers inside the country. And I think it’s pretty well known that Chinese law requires that security services are allowed access to any data hosted within the country. Did any of Facebook’s security team or its engineers raise concerns to management about Americans’ private information being exposed to Chinese spying?

Ms. Sarah Wynn-Williams: Yes, Senator, they did.

Sen. Blumenthal: How did they do that?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: They documented their concern in a number of ways. They noted that this would happen, that the Chinese would get access to the data. They also noted their concern in other discussions, in other documentations, saying you know, “my redline as a security engineer is to not be comfortable with this, but my redline is not Mark Zuckerberg’s redline.”

Sen. Blumenthal: Maybe you can explain what you mean by that.

Ms. Wynn-Williams: The engineer was saying that they were not comfortable with the way the China project was structured, that would allow the Chinese Communist Party to potentially access American citizens data. But in saying that, they noted, you know, that that’s a redline for me as a security engineer, that’s not Mark Zuckerberg’s redline.

Sen. Blumenthal: Did you sense that he had any redline?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: I did not.

Sen. Blumenthal: If he did, you don’t know what it was?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: I don’t.

Sen. Blumenthal: If you have more information related to these spying risks, would you be willing to share it with the committee?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: I would, Senator.

Sen. Blumenthal: Mark Zuckerberg was knowledgeable about the planning. Do you know whether he was knowledgeable about the risks, as well?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: My understanding is that the risk is the hardest part of the plan, so it’s unthinkable that he was not aware of the risks.

Sen. Blumenthal: Nothing happened here without his approval and knowledge?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: This was a project unlike any other product I worked on during my time at Meta, in that it was so centrally led by Mark Zuckerberg and he was so personally invested in this project. He learned Mandarin. He traveled to China more than any other country. He had weekly Mandarin sessions with employees. This was, it’s hard to overstate how different this project was to any other project I experienced in my many years at the company.

Sen. Blumenthal: So, there would be no credibility to his denying that he knew about the risks, he knew about the concerns raised by his engineers and his China team, and he was intimately involved in not only the planning and the engineering, but also in taking those risks.

Ms. Wynn-Williams: Senator, he was traveling to Beijing.

Sen. Blumenthal: In the documents submitted to the subcommittee, Facebook appears to have been willing to provide the data of users in Hong Kong to the Chinese government, at a time when pro-democracy protesters were opposing Beijing’s crackdown. Is that impression, correct? How did Facebook treat Taiwan or Hong Kong?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That impression is correct. One of the more surprising things is that as part of the censorship tool that was developed, there were a virality counters. So anytime a piece of content got over 10,000 views, that would automatically trigger it being reviewed by what they called the chief editor. And what was particularly surprising is that the virality counters were not just installed but activated in Hong Kong and also in Taiwan.

Sen. Blumenthal: Let me ask you, I raised in my remarks, and I know that a number of other colleagues did as well, the record of misrepresentation and deceit. One of our former colleagues, Senator Leahy, asked Mark Zuckerberg in 2018 whether Facebook would comply with Chinese censorship and surveillance demand. He even asked if Facebook had built censorship tools to enter the Chinese market and Zuckerberg responded, I’m quoting, “Because Facebook has been blocked in China since 2009, we are not in a position to know exactly how the government would seek to apply its laws and regulations on content, were we permitted to offer our service to Chinese users.” Ms. Wynn-Williams was that accurate?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That is not accurate. Hundreds of decisions had been made. By 2018, they’d been in dialogue directly with the Chinese Communist Party for four years.

Sen. Blumenthal: The fact is, by 2018, Facebook built, it even turned on, censorship and surveillance tools that it developed, it developed, for Chinese security officials. Correct?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: It developed, and those Chinese Communist Party officials tested the censorship tool and would give feedback and say, this needs to change, or we need this, or we need confidence that you can capture images and filter images we don't want seen.

Sen. Blumenthal: You know we talk a lot about 1984. Facebook developed a virality counter tool that directed any post of over 10,000 views to be reviewed by an Orwellian named “chief editor,” is that correct?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That’s correct.

Sen. Blumenthal: Was the chief editors geographic region limited to mainland China or did they plan to cover other locations?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: They planned to cover Hong Kong and Taiwan is my understanding.

Sen. Blumenthal: So, their surveillance operation was directed at Taiwan?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That’s my understanding senator.

Sen. Blumenthal: And Hong Kong?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That’s my understanding.

Sen. Blumenthal: Was the editor in chief’s, or the chief editor's power, limited to reviewing viral posts?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: Oh no, it’s an extensive power. The chief editor would be able to turn off the entire service in specific regions, for example, Xinjiang, or would also be able to turn off or manage the service on significant anniversaries, like the anniversary of Tiananmen Square.

Sen. Blumenthal: So, the chief editor, a creation of Facebook, was an Orwellian censor that apply to locations outside mainland China, to Taiwan and Hong Kong, to people not within the legal jurisdiction of China, but also obviously the Chinese themselves and it was designed and implemented by Meta and Mark Zuckerberg.

Ms. Wynn-Williams: Correct, Senator.

Sen. Blumenthal: Even though its very existence was denied before this committee in 2018.

Ms. Wynn-Williams: That’s correct, Senator.

Sen. Blumenthal: Silicon Valley companies are famous, as you know, for their moonshot programs such as Google X. In recent years Mark Zuckerberg spent billions of dollars on the metaverse and A.I., he even renamed the company as part of a pivot to focus on that technology. Did Facebook engage in any moonshot efforts in China, and where these efforts walled off or protected from the Communist Party?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: They did, Senator. I’d be happy to follow-up with the committee on this point.

Sen. Blumenthal: You’d prefer to follow-up privately?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: Yes.

Sen. Blumenthal: Just one last question, I'm interested in how much of a national champion Meta actually is for the United States. Did Facebook share information about its facial recognition, artificial intelligence models, and other sensitive technologies to Chinese security officials? In other words, did it share that significant technology regarding facial recognition and other surveillance methods?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: Look, the greatest trick Mark Zuckerberg ever pulled was wrapping the American flag around himself and calling himself a patriot and saying he did not offer services in China, while he spent the last decade building an $18 billion business there.

Sen. Blumenthal: And he wrapped the flag around himself even as he disclosed sensitive technologies that enable the Chinese to gain the upper hand on surveilling its citizens but also the upper hand in engaging with us?

Ms. Wynn-Williams: And he continues to wrap the flag around himself as we move into the next era of artificial intelligence.

Sen. Blumenthal: Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

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